Back again after a beatiful weekend i spent learning to play didgeridoo; another 3 BOINC models uploaded and yet another crash of alpha model.

Thanks for kind offer, Beezlebub.
Sylvia is right about e-mail addresses etc but personally, i would rather have phpBB back with may e-mail address on yet another place than be considerably limited by BOINC forum.
There was a poll several months ago (on phpBB, of course) about phpBB vs. BOINC forum- 3/4 votes were for having phpBB. Personally, i see having both forums a wise choice - with preference of phpBB.

With respect, i can't agree with Carl's arguments (e.g. a lot of new people etc, vocal of few 'regulars'.). Actually, i would interpret it as an argument for having phpBB back (with working a better searching functions) since, as geophi points out, there are the same qeustions again and again. Everyone should keep in mind that those 'few regulars' helped building an unique spirit of CPDN forum (and yet unmatching to other DC projects), helped deeper understanding of CPDN and enabled a real CPDN community to exist; i wouldn't be so involved nor had visited Oxford and travelled that far without it!
A limited personal and time sources within CPDN team is another argument for having readable phpBB forum with some advanced editing features etc. phpBB was pretty effective of guiding new members, having stickies and annoucements to point of important issues (when CPDN web-site is quite static). I think that phpBB did very well during BOINC launch - a similar spike of new members like we have now. I agree that CPDN team is doing pretty well on releasing materials about CPDN etc... but as you can see, there are strong voices for phpBB resurection.

As i see it, the list of missing features on BOINC forum only got bigger. There has been such discussion about missing feature back in Aug 2004 (now buried in phpBB forum, of perhaps on BOINC forum as well but can't find it) and a long, long list of them.

To name and summarize some of them and are still considered as important, may be even more than before:
- working search facility
- greatly limited post editing and styling for non-HTML geeks (majority of participants); for those knowing HTML still more time consuming.
- stickies, annoucements
- moderators, administrators
- who's on-line
- mark-as-read
- list unread posts on 1-page (instead of 9 different pages like now)
- general users friendly interface
- no preview of written message
- PM (private messages), now substituted by 'Ping name' topics which is mostly ineffective for more that 20 people now in Alfa CPDN). Participant from forum is effectively unable to contact other participant via forum.
- polls; they were pretty popular, right?
- editing threads like split, re-arrange, lock, edit, delete
- limited 2-level threads resulting in a mess-like post vs. 3-level hierarchy
- sending subscriptions notification repeatedly (phpBB does it only once until thread is read again)
...
And, for sure, lot more i can't think of right now.

> If any of the admin people are reading this, I will offer phpBB on my hosting
> site server for a cpdn forum so as to keep it off your servers so it doesn't
> compromise your security. I have a BB up already at www.txeagle.com/cpdn, I
> just don't want to run it. Maybe one of the mods will set it up if you still
> have all the msg files.

Well Honza come to the test board and list the forums we need,,,,:) (I really need help)

BTW Slyvia I have no need nor interest in everyones e-mail,,,,i'll leave mass mailings to you.

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> Well Honza come to the test board and list the forums we need,,,,:) (I really
> need help)
Yeap, i may put a helpful hand.

> BTW Slyvia I have no need nor interest in everyones e-mail,,,,i'll leave mass mailings to you.
It think it was not meant as lack of trust. Any phpBB forum administrator in priciple has access to e-mails of registered members...and a few people may dislike it if a classic-and-ever-best phpBB CPDN forum data with user's profiles would be used.

Doing a phpBB forum backup is a two-click operation for forum administrator - i do so on regular basis on Czech BOINC forum (now about 3.000 messages, incorporating all BOINC projects). Restoring it may be another story - i haven't had to do so, yet (emoticon missing).
As i understand, a lot of people would be happy having even read-only version of phpBB forum since there is a huge library of valuable information with an easy and user friendly access. Perhaps phpbb_db_backup.sql can be edited so users profile are excluded but valuable information remains...why starting another forum from fresh when thousand of messages with clear structure has already been made with great effort; both by CPDN team and participants.

My apoligies to Sylvia for that comment, it didn't come out as I wanted !

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> Thanks for the offer, Beezlebub, we're still looking in to it, but suspect
> that the legal/ security issues for participants (you will have access to
> everyones email addresses, which they werent asked to agree to when they
> signed up, and if phpbb is vulnerable then we cannot put the board back up
> knowing that the database with everyones e mail addresses in it is
> vulnerable...) will mean that its not possible.
> We're still working on it!
> Sylvia

Sylvia,
I seem to remember that Classic CPDN was going to be made the basis for the Open University course. Will people signing on for the new Course have to switch across to the BOINC message board to get community support??

Andrew

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Andrew

<a href="http://cpdnforum.info">CPDNforum<a>

On the subject of the OU course, will it not be possible for people participating in that to be able to run BOINC anyway, now that Colin has worked on the advanced visualisation?

It would help new recruits a lot to know that they can learn more about the climate without having to run different models with different software.

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&gt; Doing a phpBB forum backup is a two-click operation for forum administrator -
&gt; i do so on regular basis on Czech BOINC forum (now about 3.000 messages,
&gt; incorporating all BOINC projects). Restoring it may be another story - i
&gt; haven't had to do so, yet (emoticon missing).
&gt; As i understand, a lot of people would be happy having even read-only version
&gt; of phpBB forum since there is a huge library of valuable information with an
&gt; easy and user friendly access. Perhaps phpbb_db_backup.sql can be edited so
&gt; users profile are excluded but valuable information remains...why starting
&gt; another forum from fresh when thousand of messages with clear structure has
&gt; already been made with great effort; both by CPDN team and participants.
&gt;

Perhaps someone can explain to me why if we can't even access the information on the old board on a read only basis what exactly was the point of a) bothering to back it up and b) any of us bothering to post at all, given that at any point in the future (eg if this board is hacked) nothing we are saying will be considered of sufficient value to the project to be worth keeping?

As far as the email security/legal issues as concerned the problem appears to be one of the consent of those members who registered for the phpBB. In which case would a first step be simply to ask them if they objected to the board being hosted on an 'independent' server? In addition, the board was a <i>public</i> board ie <b>anyone</b> could access it without any need to register etc...

From the early part of this thread.....

&gt;"(KMi) They did offer to tar it up and send it to us to host, but neither Neil
&gt;nor Tolu were convinced (when push came to shove) that phpbb is safe enough (at
&gt;the moment) to risk it. This is partly because we don't have any spare machines
&gt;which could just host the boards. Maybe one of our friendly collaborating
&gt;institutions could help us out..?

&gt;Dave"

<i>If</i> the board were hosted on a different server its success would in part depend on the co-operation of the 'team' and their willingness to participate. Issues re moderators, administrators etc would not be impossible to resolve and people participating would know the situation when they registered.......and the BOINC board would still be here, as ever, as a backup.

Marj

<a href="http://www.txeagle.com/cpdn/">have a look</a>

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_________________________________

Hi,

Sylvia's point about security and legal issues was specifically about the Data Protection Act. When you sign up to the phpBB forum, you give us your personal information, including your email address. The University of Oxford, where the project is based, is covered by the Data Protection Act, and we cannot give out that information to a third party without your consent. We take the protection of your personal information very seriously, and so it's very difficult for us to allow a server outside the University to host the old forum, as it is, with its database of names and email addresses.

We very much appreciate your offer, Beezlebub, and we don't want to sound like we're dimissing it, but I hope you can understand our predicament with regard to data protection.

We're still working on ways to get the old forum back up again, and we'll keep you posted as to any progress.

Many thanks,
Hannah

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The issue here seems to be e-mail addresses and access (Data Protection). Seeing as though Oxford (CPDN)is not going to put it up for a vote (gzip backup),how about I give you cpdnforum.info (Domain and control panel) and the space to run the board. That will be your site with only you as Admin having access to the info.

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What a generous offer!

Now, with 'famous' CPDN/BOINC forum down with no prior warning and no notice on static homepage, nor other information available- isn't it yet another reasonable argument to put classic phpBB up again.

Has BOINC forum been hacked?
Why we can't have server status page as another BOINC project do?
Isn't it yet another reasonable argument to put classic phpBB up again?

&gt; The issue here seems to be e-mail addresses and access (Data Protection).
&gt; Seeing as though Oxford (CPDN)is not going to put it up for a vote (gzip
&gt; backup),how about I give you cpdnforum.info (Domain and control panel) and the
&gt; space to run the board. That will be your site with only you as Admin having
&gt; access to the info.
&gt;

As Honza said, there are many features of the php board that are simply not replicated on the boinc boards. Apart from the VIEW NEW POSTS facility and the much better search engine, I would be very sorry to lose access to the memberlist leading to contact details, the WHO IS LOGGED IN and the private messaging service. The last two, used together, mean that members can contact each other personally almost like in a messaging service.

Is there any hope of getting php back, even if we have to wait?

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__________________________________________________

I, too, miss the other forum. But I look at it like this:
It's someone else's car, which I'm been borrowing. Now it's in the garage for extensive repairs after
a serious crash, and I don't feel I should keep asking when it will be working, so I can borrow it again.
A point of view probably not shared by others. :(

******************

A few questions:
Does the Oxford University's computer lab have it's own servers, or just terminals off KMI servers?
Is there room in the lab for (another) small server?
How big would it need to be to handle the phpBB stuff?
I'm guessing that it wouldn't be too big physically, just have large HDs.
How much would it cost?
Could this amount be raised by the sale of WoW mugs, donations, etc?
If the lab has it's own servers, maintenance wouldn't increase too much.

(I knew I should have built that bomb shelter back in the 60's.)

Les

I'm sharing concern and missing of OUR classic forum as many contributors do; thanks mo and many others.
This point of view is not shared since the car never crashed! It's safe in garage (being repared?), locked so noone can even see it. It's not someone else's car, it's a shared car - note that apps like CPView, CPFarmView, Wowmugs designs, manuals how to perform computer maintenance, doing backup and many more are authorship of CPDNers that decicated hundreds of hours doing those things, helping both CPDN project/team and other participants. This would have been (and i dare to assess should have been) available to all CPDN participants so that they can run CPDN with less troubles and have deeper understanding hence stick with CPDN.

As of the questions below, upon my knowledge, answer would be Yes, it doesn't need any large space (even less for running CPDM model!), rather fast and reliable internet access, no need to top hardware neighter. Yes, it can be raised by the sale of WoW mugs (will there be eventually possibily of buying?) and donation (as has already been proposed for buying better compliler so that AMD users and 64-bit application - as was availabe decade ago for Cray - can run their models faster hence bring even more benefit to CPDN project).
But they issue can be easily considered irrelevant since a generous offer to host phpBB forum together with moderation/administration and with no cost for CPDN has been already made. There is already server built and running, forum set-up, even domain name such as cpdnforum.info can be registred to illustrate this it would be CPDN off-site forum (no to harm Oxford reputation) - again with no cost for CPDN.

Do i need to add more?

&gt; I, too, miss the other forum. But I look at it like this:
&gt; It's someone else's car, which I'm been borrowing. Now it's in the garage for
&gt; extensive repairs after
&gt; a serious crash, and I don't feel I should keep asking when it will be
&gt; working, so I can borrow it again.
&gt; A point of view probably not shared by others. :(
&gt;
&gt; ******************
&gt;
&gt; A few questions:
&gt; Does the Oxford University's computer lab have it's own servers, or just
&gt; terminals off KMI servers?
&gt; Is there room in the lab for (another) small server?
&gt; How big would it need to be to handle the phpBB stuff?
&gt; I'm guessing that it wouldn't be too big physically, just have large HDs.
&gt; How much would it cost?
&gt; Could this amount be raised by the sale of WoW mugs, donations, etc?
&gt; If the lab has it's own servers, maintenance wouldn't increase too much.
&gt;
&gt; (I knew I should have built that bomb shelter back in the 60's.)
&gt;
&gt; Les
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

Apologys Honza
I left out a bit. By 'car', I meant the file server itself, not the forum. From what I can figure out,
the server belongs to, and is operated by, KMi, and we just have (had?) some space on it.

This seems to be a VERY touchy subject, so I'll butt out.

Les

Zain Upton, from the team BOINC Synergy, put a donate by paypal on his team site which generates lots and lots of stats. All money is put towards the cost of the server. 545US dollars has been donated since 1/1/5, and that is presumably from just one team. It seems silly to collect and spend such money when someone has very kindly offered to host the php board for free. Nevertheless I wonder whether such a donate option should be put on the web pages. What would be the top priorities that the participants' would want to donate towards?

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Visit BOINC WIKI for help

And join BOINC Synergy for all the news in one place.

If we accepted Beelzebub's php board, maybe the people who wrote announcements and stickies on the old board could give permission for them to be copied across to the new board. Most were written by a dedicated core of contributors who are still active and could still be contacted and asked.

Instead of copying the memberlist across, with attendant data protection difficulties, we could sign up again on the new board. Then we'd be responsible for ourselves, and Oxford Uni wouldn't be responsible for us and our personal data.

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__________________________________________________

&gt; As Honza said, there are many features of the php board that are simply not
&gt; replicated on the boinc boards. Apart from the VIEW NEW POSTS facility and the
&gt; much better search engine, I would be very sorry to lose access to the
&gt; memberlist leading to contact details, the WHO IS LOGGED IN and the private
&gt; messaging service. The last two, used together, mean that members can contact
&gt; each other personally almost like in a messaging service.
&gt;

View new posts is already implemented in the BOINC-forums, there you can configure if wants to jump directly to new post in a thread or not.

Actually, the BOINC-version is working better in this regard than any other forum I've used, like CPDN's "classic" php-forums, since in other forums it's either all messages is automatically marked read next time logs in, or all info is hidden-away in a cookie and any small problems with browser or anything means either all messages is read or none is read so isn't really useful.
In BOINC-forums, since it's using the projects servers, any info about read post is residing on the servers and isn't relying on a cookie and isn't marking all messages read even if you haven't read them.

As for administrators, programmers, forum moderators and other special users, this is already implemented, and forum-moderators can edit posts and similar moderator-jobs.

As for limited html-code like <b>bold</b> and such, you can select a link in the reply-box showing the most common html-codes used in the forum. It's not as easy as clicking in most other forums, but it's easily available for everyone wanting to use it.

Smilies would be nice to add, but still most would understand :) and :(

Personal messages is planned implemented.

So for most of the things it's not a problem with missing functionality in the BOINC-forums, it's rather that CPDN haven't bothered to upgrade their server-software as other projects is doing.
Oh, and upgrading the forums isn't the most critical, fixing one of the upload-servers and updating the CPDN-applications so they're usable with BOINC core-client v4.2x expected released within a fortnight if no serious bugs left to fix should be more important than some small "missing" features in the forums.

&gt; View new posts is already implemented in the BOINC-forums, there you can
&gt; configure if wants to jump directly to new post in a thread or not.
&gt;
&gt; Actually, the BOINC-version is working better in this regard than any other
&gt; forum I've used, like CPDN's "classic" php-forums, since in other forums it's
&gt; either all messages is automatically marked read next time logs in, or all
&gt; info is hidden-away in a cookie and any small problems with browser or
&gt; anything means either all messages is read or none is read so isn't really
&gt; useful.
&gt; In BOINC-forums, since it's using the projects servers, any info about read
&gt; post is residing on the servers and isn't relying on a cookie and isn't
&gt; marking all messages read even if you haven't read them.
&gt;
Ahhh...but one of the most useful features of the phpBB forums was the ability to simply "View all new posts since last visit", and get a long list of those posts through one click. I used that all the time. Yes, it sometimes didn't work perfectly, but neither does the functionality in this forum for identifying new posts. I frequently come back to the forum to see that posts that have been made since my last visit to a given topic are not marked as new. Maybe that has to do with the way CPDN server time is off by 35 minutes, or the way it identifies what topic you were last in when you left, I don't know, but the functionality here is certainly NOT better than the phpBB forums in that regard.

&gt; As for administrators, programmers, forum moderators and other special users,
&gt; this is already implemented, and forum-moderators can edit posts and similar
&gt; moderator-jobs.
&gt;
Well maybe then moderators are not implemented well here. At the phpBB forums, dedicated users were also moderators. They had/took the time to moderate. Here, I believe the only moderator/moderators are on the core team. And they are too busy to moderate (that's not a slam, just a simple fact). Not that in this format moderation of posts is a huge deal. Perhaps other users should be made moderators as well.

&gt; As for limited html-code like <b>bold</b> and such, you can select a link in
&gt; the reply-box showing the most common html-codes used in the forum. It's not
&gt; as easy as clicking in most other forums, but it's easily available for
&gt; everyone wanting to use it.
&gt;
I've never seen that link in the reply to page (not here or in the updated forums at CPDN Sulphur Alpha). That comes up only in the Create a New Thread page. And the link description of "May contain html tags" does not necessarily make it user-friendly for non-geeks.
&gt;
&gt; Personal messages is planned implemented.
&gt;
Very good to hear that.

&gt; So for most of the things it's not a problem with missing functionality in the
&gt; BOINC-forums, it's rather that CPDN haven't bothered to upgrade their
&gt; server-software as other projects is doing.

What about the capabilities for stickies/announcements that were found to be so very helpful on phpBB? That would be huge in helping new users on topics that have already been covered in great depth many times. Yes, those could and should be covered under FAQs, but the FAQs are not updated very frequently. Of course even if that capability was implemented, more moderators would be needed to get these stickies announcements posted.

&gt; Oh, and upgrading the forums isn't the most critical, fixing one of the
&gt; upload-servers and updating the CPDN-applications so they're usable with BOINC
&gt; core-client v4.2x expected released within a fortnight if no serious bugs left
&gt; to fix should be more important than some small "missing" features in the
&gt; forums.
&gt;
Well we agree on that priorities point at least. However, my (and I'm sure others) definition of what missing features are "small" apparently differs greatly from yours.

If you are involved in the development of this forum software, could I also suggest a more easily available/better labeled forum search link? As implemented here, the search links are only on the first page of the forums. They should be available from any forum page and labeled something like "Forums search". Perhaps this is already implemented in the updated forum software we yet don't have?

I'm in total agreement with geophi on what he wrotes (lack of moderation at all, missing stickies/annocements making forum a mess and people asking tha same question again and again). I don't want to repeat myself - mainly when things are apparent. I spent considerable time today by looking at phpBB forum and even done some add-ons and widening of functionality on Czech BOINC phpBB forum. Rich phpBB forum functionally can be brought to even another level that since cann't compare with those of BOINC (in considerable timeline).
Other finding that seems to be relevant - i havn't found a proof that phpBB forum in version 2.0.11 have been hacked.

More relevant, and what i consider of most importance, is that phpBB forum is not only rich on functionality, but classic forum already has a HUGE amount of knowledge on CPDN project, problem solving strategies etc. This is similar to lost of all classic CPDN MODELS that we have been computing for months. I also feel that CPDN community (which i count myself to be member of since May 2003) and it's spirit had already been somehow damaged by ignoring already existing way to put our knowledge base of classic forum back.

There is nobody that wants CPNDer to push to phpBB; but everybody should have an option to share what (in significant way) enabled CPDN for BOINC exist and became a viable project.

I completely agree with Honza, Geophi. Both of you were among the core of the CPDN phpBB community. Since my last post here a week ago I've waited and here little or no response of the CPDN team. This with the loss of the forum, the complete faillure of the CPDN team to put regular updates here or on the website, gives me the feeling that I may deliver power and computing time, but that this 'donation' is not really valued/appreciated. I therefore have uninstalled boinc/cpdn and stopped my contribution (after about 10 model runs)

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