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Merging computers

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Message 30518 - Posted: 16 Sep 2007, 11:16:52 UTC

Hi, I have 3 active computers crunching workunits now. But in my account I can see 6 hosts. I can\'t merge none of these host each other. In particular, I would like to merge hosts 743416 with 501288, and 758569 with 304572, but the web interface doesn\'t let me do it, perhaps because of the different operating system (windows xp now / windows 2000 in the old hosts). Can somebody of the staff do this \"manual\" merge?
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Message 30520 - Posted: 16 Sep 2007, 13:21:55 UTC
Last modified: 16 Sep 2007, 13:25:19 UTC

Computer records can only be merged if their descriptions are identical. Boinc now produces more detailed descriptions than it used to. So now the server thinks these are different computers because the descriptions are different and refuses to merge them. Sometimes even when the descriptions look identical, the records can\'t be merged. I have 2 records of one computer that won\'t merge. Click on my name and you\'ll see.

I\'m sorry, but we moderators can\'t even do a manual merge for ourselves. I know it\'s a bit of a nuisance. Best not to click on All hosts and then at least you won\'t see the old records.

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Message 30522 - Posted: 16 Sep 2007, 18:21:40 UTC - in response to Message 30520.  

Oh.. I understand.. I thought some people of the project\'s servers were reading this forum.. I posted this request bevause I am participating in SETI@home, and in that case all the merge were successful, even with new/old versions of BOINC and even with different operating systems! (win2000/winxp).
Yes if I look at hosts active in the past 30 days I see mi active hosts, but in BOINCstats I still see these \"ghosts\" that don\'t want to go away :(
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Message 30523 - Posted: 16 Sep 2007, 19:16:45 UTC

Hi again

The whole of the boinc software used by cpdn was just upgraded on Friday so I\'ve again tried merging my \'Home 2\' to see if I can now, but still no luck.

You\'re saying that your merges worked on Seti even with different descriptions of the same computer?

I\'m going to post about this in the moderators\' section of the forum where the thread will be seen by the programmers from Oxford and by some members who also crunch Seti.
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Message 30535 - Posted: 17 Sep 2007, 19:07:37 UTC - in response to Message 30523.  

You\'re saying that your merges worked on Seti even with different descriptions of the same computer?


Exactly. Different description such as the new [mmx sse sse2 3dnow etc etc] and even different operating systems, the old being windows 2000 and the new windows xp. I don\'t see any duplicate host on my SETI account.
I have also an account in Rosetta, but in that case I have no luck, I can\'t merge hosts. I opened this thread to signal the problem to the Rosetta people

http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=3569
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Message 30536 - Posted: 17 Sep 2007, 20:21:48 UTC
Last modified: 17 Sep 2007, 20:23:11 UTC

This climate project is different to all the others in many ways.

For instance, ALL of the data returned is kept for use by researchers around the world over many years to come. There are now huge amounts of data, with more accumulating all the time.
Other projects have no need to save all data; if a work unit doesn\'t \'produce a result\', there\'s no need for the data.

As a result of this difference, the database is structured differently, with computers tied to the data so that some, at least, of the researchers, (perhaps undergrads at Oxford), can see if there is a pattern to failures/successes due to hardware differences.
It\'s been posted on our separate forum that steps are taken to remove variations in the \'climate\' due to hardware, from the results for the models.

There is thus no separate database of user\'s computers that can be fiddled with to make people\'s results look neat/pretty/tidy.
And the 2 programmers have loads of work to due with putting the data into a suitable form so that it can be made available to the researchers. (See this site for the data, and this for a discussion thread.)
They are also busy with creating new model types, and testing them.

So: You can delete some unwanted computers and merge others. After that, you\'re stuck with whatever is still there.


Backups: Here
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Message 30553 - Posted: 18 Sep 2007, 18:55:12 UTC - in response to Message 30536.  

I understand. Well, I know there is so little time in this world :(

I wanted to signal this thing, I was thinking the merge function not working were some BOINC problems that the people of SETI have solved.

Thanks for your answers and good work! :)
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Message 30556 - Posted: 18 Sep 2007, 20:21:57 UTC
Last modified: 18 Sep 2007, 20:29:25 UTC

Hi again

I\'ve tested this out a bit. I posted this in the mods\' section:

\'I tested what you said about restoring backups from before and after the last server contact (usually network activity\'s suspended).

A model on the old computer which boinc used to call Guest1 and now calls Home1 last trickled on 13 Sep. I restored a backup made on 14 Sep ie after last server contact and sure enough, boinc created a new computer record called Home1. The two Home1 records merged immediately.

I then eliminated that restore and restored an older backup made on 12 Sep ie before the computer\'s last contact with the server. Boinc again created a new computer record called Home1. The two Home1 records again merged immediately.

http://climateapps2.oucs.ox.ac.uk/cpdnboinc/hosts_user.php?show_all=1&sort=rpc_time

So I replaced that with the oldest backup I have from that computer, made on 9 Sep. Again boinc created a new computer record and again the two Home1 records merged perfectly.

This is with boinc 5.8.16. Maybe if I had a newer version the pre-last-contact merges wouldn\'t have worked?\'


John Keck, who knows more about boinc than I ever will, replied

\'Mo;
hmmm. The version should not matter, once the RPC sequence numbers get out of step the hosts should not merge. There may have been more changes to the code than I thought.

Perhaps it takes an RPC from both copies of the host to make the records unmergable. If you really want to make a host you can not merge, try restoring a backup, letting it trickle, then restoring another backup and letting it trickle before you try to merge hosts.
\'

So I\'m trying that on the new computer, Home2, running an SAP and a cpdn model in tandem. I\'ve gone through all of John\'s instructions with the SAP model ie SAP test completed, but not yet with the cpdn because the trickles are so infrequent.

At every stage of the test so far I\'ve had the option to merge/delete the extra computer records on cpdn, whether I try from the new computer running these models, or from the old computer. But on SAP I can merge from the computer running the model, but not from the old computer which has never crunched SAP. From the old computer I only see a short version of the computer summary with no merge/delete option at the bottom.

I looked at an extra computer record I have for Home2 generated a while ago on QMC and cpdn beta when I was moving models round. The old computer has never crunched these 2 projects though it appears to be attached to them (they\'re listed in its Projects tab). I found I could merge records on both projects from the new computer. But trying from the old computer, cpdn beta showed me the full computer summary page with the merge/delete options, whereas QMC only showed me the short summary with no merge option.

I now wonder whether certain projects (SAP, QMC) are only showing the short computer summary page (which appears to have no merge/delete option) to computers that have never crunched a workunit for them. On these projects you need to try the merge on a computer which has crunched for them.

I don\'t think this is any sort of policy decision. SAP seems to apply this but cpdn beta doesn\'t. The software for both projects was upgraded at the same time last Friday. I can\'t try this for APS or cpdn because both computers have crunched both projects.

This is just what I\'ve tried to deduce so far, but I could be mistaken about a lot of this.






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Message 30570 - Posted: 19 Sep 2007, 19:23:18 UTC - in response to Message 30556.  
Last modified: 19 Sep 2007, 19:47:50 UTC

I\'ve never done those strange things with projects. The worst thing I have done seems to be this: changed OS and BOINC version. I can tell you that the web interface of the SETI project has \"forgiven my mistake\" letting me merge the hosts, but CPDN and Rosetta don\'t.
If you look at the thread I\'ve opened in the Rosetta forum, they are talking about a new web interface for the BOINC project that hasn\'t these problems.
So, IMHO, since CPDN is now a BOINC project, I think this is only a matter of upgrading the server software, if there is time to do it, it should be done. All IMHO, of course.
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Message 30577 - Posted: 20 Sep 2007, 11:41:45 UTC
Last modified: 20 Sep 2007, 11:45:53 UTC

The boinc software for all 4 Climate Prediction projects was upgraded last Friday, though the job isn\'t yet complete for the BBC project.

When I looked again and again at my computer summary pages on the various projects I\'m attached to, I noticed another anomaly. On most projects the username says \'Show IP address\'. This really means \'This is your own computer\'. But on one project and only from one of my computers, it says my name mo.v. On another project and again from one of my computers only, one computer summary gives my name mo.v but the other two summaries of the same computer say it belongs to Anonymous.

It\'s on projects where the name of the computer owner shows as mo.v or Anonymous that I\'m only shown the short (not full) computer summary page where there\'s no option to merge computers. I think these pages are failing to recognise that I am the owner of the computer.

Maybe this problem arises if the CPID isn\'t synchronised for all of a member\'s computers on all their projects. I don\'t know this, I\'m just guessing.

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Message 30598 - Posted: 21 Sep 2007, 10:42:39 UTC

My previous post was a load of rubbish. I have now found that where projects were only showing me the short computer summary with no option to merge, it was because from the old computer I was treated as not logged in. When I logged in I was given the option to merge.

So I set about actually merging all my surplus records across all the projects for Home2. I found that not only did the extra records created by my \'test\' merge perfectly, but the two previously unmergeable records also did. Home2 now has a clean web record!

So my advice can only be to occasionally go back to the surplus records and try merging them again. When you have generated even more extra computer records, merging them all may be successful. I have no idea why.
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Message 30639 - Posted: 22 Sep 2007, 12:47:50 UTC - in response to Message 30598.  

I was successful in merging 2 hosts I created some days ago, what I can\'t merge is the same host which was duplicated about 1-2years ago
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Message 30647 - Posted: 22 Sep 2007, 15:22:23 UTC

Maybe adding extra memory or upgrading from Win 2000 to XP convinced boinc that this was a new computer.
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Message 30658 - Posted: 23 Sep 2007, 11:19:08 UTC - in response to Message 30647.  

Quoting myself, 2nd post of this thread:
I am participating in SETI@home, and in that case all the merge were successful, even with new/old versions of BOINC and even with different operating systems! (win2000/winxp).


The hosts that are running SETI and CPDN are the same, but the web interface of SETI let me merge the hosts, CPDN don\'t
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Message 30663 - Posted: 23 Sep 2007, 17:56:34 UTC

Maybe you\'re being taken to a \'not logged in\' page for your cpdn account and the cpdn computer records, as happened to me on a couple of projects from one of my computers.

Instead of getting to your cpdn account through clicking the button link in boinc manager, try this instead.

In the menu on the left-hand-side of this forum page, click on Taking part in CPDN, then in the drop-down menu that appears, select Your account. Get to the list of your computers from that account page; click All hosts to see all the records. Go to each computer in turn. Maybe you\'ll be given the option to delete or merge some of them.

Is that more successful?
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Message 30693 - Posted: 24 Sep 2007, 21:11:20 UTC - in response to Message 30663.  

In the menu on the left-hand-side of this forum page, click on Taking part in CPDN, then in the drop-down menu that appears, select Your account. Get to the list of your computers from that account page; click All hosts to see all the records. Go to each computer in turn. Maybe you\'ll be given the option to delete or merge some of them.


This is actually how I try to merge hosts. BTW, an Admin from the Rosetta project told me that the SETI project is a sort of \"testbed\" for new features, so they now have a \"new merge function\", which seems working better than the previous one, and they will be upgrading the server software when they can. So it seems the problem is the server software.. Maybe we have hust to wait that each project admin upgrades the software :)
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Message 30698 - Posted: 24 Sep 2007, 22:18:36 UTC


BOINC was created by the same people who started SETI, which is why SETI is a testbed for new BOINC developements.
And the two projects are run from the same place: The University of Calfornia, Berkeley.

***************

As I posted near the start of this thread, the database is structured differently here to that of most/all of the projects, and there is no reason why the project people should or will use the parts of new server software that don\'t fit with how this project is organised.

But, as you say; wait and see.

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Message 31519 - Posted: 28 Nov 2007, 17:50:35 UTC

I was having the same problem (cannot merge computers) on the Rosetta@home project; they upgraded the BOINC server side code and I successfully merged my computers @Rosetta, and other users were successful :)

See this thread: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta//forum_thread.php?id=3569

I don\'t have any idea of how the server software is done, but they had the same issue of the merge function and now (for me) is all ok :)
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Message 33892 - Posted: 20 May 2008, 16:33:34 UTC - in response to Message 30698.  



But, as you say; wait and see.



This morning, FINALLY, I was successful in merging my old computers!!!!!
It seems that the server software version is updated now, the options of the \"computers on this account\" are similar to that of the SETI project..

Thanks for resolving this :)

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Message 33893 - Posted: 20 May 2008, 16:46:54 UTC

And thanks to you for reporting this. Other previously frustrated members may now try again.
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